[FFmpeg-cvslog] random thoughts about SoC (was: Re: random thoughts about refactoring)

[Diego Biurrun]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 05:01:33AM +0100, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:08:22AM +0100, Diego Biurrun wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 11:13:31PM +0100, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 10:45:16PM +0100, Diego Biurrun wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 10:23:34PM +0100, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 02:48:00PM -0500, compn wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > i'll paste some relevent irc chat:
> > > > > 
> > > > > thank you!
> > > > > while not as usefull as i thought, it is usefull.
> > > > > 
> > > > > some comments below
> > > > > 
> > > > > > [17:49] <DonDiego> Dark_Shikari: we have no students who reach the patch review phase, so this is not a problem
> > > > > 
> > > > > ehm? there are plenty who did reach patch review, theres even a patch laying
> > > > > around that i should review. You make it look quite a bit worse than it is
> > > > 
> > > > SoC is not going too well and what's worse, it's not improving year over
> > > > year..
> > > 
> > > Thats not ffmpeg specific.
> > 
> > I was not talking about any other projects, I know no statistics for
> > others.
> 
> Knowing about other projects in similar situations and how the try to
> solve it and how and if that was successfull seems better to me than to
> simply assume you are right and the soc mentors are all wrong

Yeah, just deny any problems, that will make them go away.  SoC is going
perfect.  All the discussions I had with other project members (including
mentors) are make-believe.  There is nothing to worry about, not now nor
in the future.

> > > Also if u ask for little you get little, if you ask for alot you get alot
> > > and some failures.
> > > Itd be certainly possible to make qual tasks and soc projects so simple
> > > that we had a maybe 70% success rate but the code that would come out of
> > > this would be less than what we get now.
> > 
> > You are missing the point.  Students and tasks should be evenly matched
> > for optimal results.
> 
> Students submit applications so they choose what they want to work on
> to match students better, mentors would need to know their abilities
> better and there also need to be matching applications submited by the
> student.
> Within these constraints we surely have tried our best in the past, you
> dont know it but we did reject applications from students when we where
> pretty certain that the student was not able to finish the work in any
> reasonable timeframe.

You *wrongly* assume that I don't know.  I know.

> > > also, ffmpeg is made of many parts, encoders, decoders, muxers, demuxers
> > > and alot in between. If you split the students we have over these there arent
> > > that many left in each category, now saying there are just 2 in one specific
> > > category is a little weak.
> > > 
> > > just a quick grep for a random student name:
> > > libavcodec/ac3dec.c: * Copyright (c) 2007-2008 Bartlomiej Wolowiec <bartek.wolowiec at gmail.com>
> > > libavcodec/ac3dec_data.c: * Copyright (c) 2007 Bartlomiej Wolowiec <bartek.wolowiec at gmail.com>
> > > libavcodec/eac3dec.c: * Copyright (c) 2007 Bartlomiej Wolowiec <bartek.wolowiec at gmail.com>
> > > libavcodec/eac3dec_data.c: * Copyright (c) 2007 Bartlomiej Wolowiec <bartek.wolowiec at gmail.com>
> > > libavcodec/lzwenc.c: * Copyright (c) 2007 Bartlomiej Wolowiec
> > > libavcodec/lzwenc.c: * @author Bartlomiej Wolowiec
> > > libavcodec/nellymoserenc.c: * Copyright (c) 2008 Bartlomiej Wolowiec
> > > libavcodec/nellymoserenc.c: * by Bartlomiej Wolowiec
> > > libavcodec/tiffenc.c: * Copyright (c) 2007 Bartlomiej Wolowiec
> > > libavcodec/tiffenc.c: * @author Bartlomiej Wolowiec
> > > libavformat/spdif.c: * Copyright (c) 2009 Bartlomiej Wolowiec
> > > libavformat/spdif.c: * @author Bartlomiej Wolowiec
> > 
> > That's a straw man.  I mean what I say, not what you put into my mouth.
> > 
> > I never claimed we got nothing out of SoC nor am I unaware that demuxers
> > are easier to write than decoders.  I was talking about decoders and my
> > point still stands.
> 
> 10 matching in libavcodec 2 in libavformat, we dont have demuxers in
> libavcodec
> and thats just one student ...

Who did not finish his task, which is my whole point.

You keep attacking straw men.

> > > > Our SoC tasks are too hard, it's a fact.
> > > 
> > > thats your oppinion and as you consider to apply for this years
> > > soc ill surely not consider your oppinon as it could be heavily
> > > biased due to personal interrest.
> > 
> > Everything is perfect.  You assess reality without flaw.  Nothing needs
> > to be changed, ever.  FFmpeg must continue in all regards without
> > adjusting course in the slightest.
> 
> we adjust course,

No, you don't.  When presented with criticism you keep attacking straw
men and raising irrelevant points.  When I talk about A being bad, you
come up with B, C and D and imply that I do not recognize or have
thought about those points.  Surprise, I have, not a single thing you
said in this thread was news to me.  Every single point I thought about
previously and already discussed with others.

It takes a thick skin and stubbornness to go up against you.  I have
had my share, my tolerance of frustration is used up.  Good luck finding
somebody else to tell you inconvenient truths.  I have little
expectation, but I love nothing more than surprises in life,
so my hope that somebody steps up to the task is sincere...

> For example when kamil failed to write a j2k encoder and decoder
> i insisted that we will not accept such combined tasks in the future

But then in 2009 look what do we have as project:

  Finish AMR-NB decoder *and* write an encoder

Not even the decoder got finished...

> > I'm sick and tired of these discussions.  First you complain loudly
> > that you want to hear about all the problems that get talked about
> > "behind your back", then you shoot at the messenger.
> 
> I do want to hear about the problems,

I can assure you that this has not improved anybody's motivation to
report any in the future.

> That said, what simpler tasks would you have in mind that we should
> suggest students to pick for their applications?

Finish previous SoC projects for example.  Write a reasonably chosen
part of a decoder/encoder, suitable for the next person to continue
working on.  Boost the performance of X, demuxers, muxers (or a part
of one), rtp network encapsulations, missing features of already
existing formats, pick up a few things from the list of interesting
patches, combine several simple tasks into a project, ...

> > Fuck it.
> 
> iam not sure how i should interpret that, could you elaborate?

For some time now, a nagging feeling has been building up that I should
spend less time on FFmpeg and more on other things.

That's what I shall do.

> >   I'm not making the mistake again.  You know what happened to
> > Cassandra when she stayed in Troy.  
> 
> actually no i dont, which of homers works do i have to read?

Wikipedia will provide sufficient information.

Diego